Religion

[Trathena]

Re: Religion

As far as not being in control of what you're seeing and experiencing... when are you ever?

Ha! Very good point. And I love the idea of watching the sunset. If I ever do try them, maybe I'll report back here!

To everyone:

Do you have a creed you follow? It doesn't necessarily have to be religious. But something like the Golden Rule or the Wicca Creed? Or hell, for Shigeru, the Apostles Creed?

I think if I had to put mine into words, it would be to try to leave the world a better place than I found it. If I died tomorrow, I will have failed in this.

[TheRuleofThree]

Re: Religion

Where the hell is auto?

We need him in here.

[Trathena]

Re: Religion

Finals, most likely. He'll be back in a few weeks.

[Silentbob1]

Re: Religion

I would not say I am a religious being, but I have a faith. If that makes any sense. A good friend of mine told me that religions make people mourn their faith rather than celebrate itand this stuck with me. Like many here I was technically raised a catholic and attended a catholic school where I was forced into attending church services and was punished for missing them. ALSO like many I was not taking anything away from these visitations. Of recent I have been thinkin about life and death and refuse to believe whole heartedly either of the debates between religion and science. Science is amazing and gives explanation to things once thought inconceivable. However it is for these same reasons that I believe there is some kind of........energy out there that governs the human spirit that science can not prove, debunk or conceive itself. I think it is egotistical for any one religion or person to believe they are capable of comprehending such phenomena. Cyclicality is something that intrigues me and it seems to be one of the most fundamental tenets of existence. Nature, life, death, seasons, ideologies, religions, nations, love, hate, marriage, divorce all go through predictable stages of cyclicality. Even cheesy music and fashion styles are consistent with this . I thus can not help but feeling that this consistency through cycles is applicable to the human spirit as well. But I obviously dont know. I am not religious at all but my faith derives from the utterly astounding nature of existence and consciousness which seems to be terribly taken for granted. Perhaps it is because I love life so much and love the people, family, and friends who surround me that I feel this way, I really dont know. But I feel so grateful for being surrounded by the people I am. Call it idealistic or self centred but this is something that I came to believe through my own interactions and ruminations with life. Religion is scary but faith is beautiful, am I a reincarnationist? I dont know. I suppose our boys dredg summarize it best the their aptly titled song "I dont Know" haha. I came to this board with a heavy mind and saw the caption "religion" under the non dredg forum and decided to read everyones postings before offering my own. This thread seemed to appear at a most convenient time for me and I thank you guys for offering up this forum for dicussion.

[AnewKINDofFEELING]

Re: Religion

I don't think you're a quack. I think you're fantastic. Jonathan Livingston Seagull had a huge impact on me too. I first read it when I was in the 8th grade, and I reread it again just a year ago. I've not read anything else by Bach, though. I need to.

I love how you describe us dying and being reborn in other forms. It's very similar to my thoughts on God being in Nature, creating and destroying and creating again.

I also think it's interesting that you kept searching for spiritual answers after losing your faith in catholicism. So did you ever consider atheism at all? Or have you always been spiritual? Or am I totally misunderstanding your post?

And does this:



mean that you believe in Karma?

I do believe in karma, but not in a very concrete form. I think karma affects our future incarnations, but doesn't dictate it. Just as in nature, a certain amount of uncertainty and randomness occurs.

As far as atheism is concerned, I cannot disregard the possible existence of a higher being. However, I feel like the problem we have is with our definition of god as a single entity. I tend to believe that "god" is more like our spiritual collective. The male, anthropomorphic god just seems silly to me. The plants and animals on earth are our spiritual siblings. However, I think human nature's need to convince ourselves that we are the epitome of god's creations is the cause of this. We tend to think highly of ourselves.

AnewKINDofFEELING added 4 Minutes and 44 Seconds later...

Another major problem I have with most christian faiths is the stubborn inability to realize that creationism and evolution are not mutually exclusive. Wouldn't god's "perfect creation" be capable of improving?

[Trathena]

Re: Religion

Of recent I have been thinkin about life and death and refuse to believe whole heartedly either of the debates between religion and science.

There can be no debate if only one person shows up. And science doesn't "debate" religion. Never has. Never will.

Religion is scary but faith is beautiful,

I wonder why religion is scary. Do you mean Abrahamic monotheism, or all religions, such as Hinduism and paganism?

And I don't know if I agree with you about faith being beautiful. "Faith" to me, sometimes seems so desperate. Religion seems be about answers, while spirituality seems to be about seeking those answers.

I came to this board with a heavy mind and saw the caption "religion" under the non dredg forum and decided to read everyones postings before offering my own. This thread seemed to appear at a most convenient time for me and I thank you guys for offering up this forum for dicussion.

Awesome. Peace to you, and thank you for joining in.

Trathena added 5 Minutes and 59 Seconds later...

I do believe in karma, but not in a very concrete form. I think karma affects our future incarnations, but doesn't dictate it. Just as in nature, a certain amount of uncertainty and randomness occurs.

I see Karma in everyday life all the time. Hell, the Beatles said it best, didn't they? "In the end, the love we make is equal to the love we take." But where I stop believing in Karma is after we die. I don't take it that far.

My thoughts on God are similar to yours. If a Creator exists, it will be found in all of Nature. That's where our seeking should begin. I think when we stopped looking around us (and inside of us) and instead began looking toward the "heavens," we started pulling away from what God is and is supposed to be about.

Another major problem I have with most christian faiths is the stubborn inability to realize that creationism and evolution are not mutually exclusive. Wouldn't god's "perfect creation" be capable of improving?

Well, see you stated the problem when you wrote "perfect." Perfection can't be improved upon. And religious folk have a difficult time thinking that God made something "imperfect." It's a vicious cycle.

[Shigeru]

Re: Religion

I think God created the world perfect. Sin ruined/tainted the world. It made a perfect world imperfect. Here's how I would explain Adam/Eve, since I'm sure you're thinking "How could a perfect would become imperfect?" God created man and woman with the the "ability" not to sin. They could have been perfect, but chose not to be through disobedience to God. After that it became impossible not to sin, since we are all fallen human beings born with our sin nature. And lastly I believe when Christ comes again it will then be impossible TO sin.

But I also don't see God creating a world that can change itself as an imperfect creation. If HE is the one that created them and gave them the ability to change, or evolve, then he gave them the ability to become the best they could "evolve" into. Does that make sense? I could have worded it better, but I'm enjoying my free Quiznos sandwich. =)

Shigeru added 5 Minutes and 1 Seconds later...

However, I think human nature's need to convince ourselves that we are the epitome of god's creations is the cause of this. We tend to think highly of ourselves.

And rightly so, wouldn't you think? What other creature has accomplished what "Man" has? Naturally, with such great gifts and abilities comes great responsibility, and we often fail to live up to that responsibility, hence all the horrendous things we're capable of, as well.

[Trathena]

Re: Religion

What is your definition of "perfect", Shigeru?

And what's your definition of "imperfect"?

Can you give examples of what you consider "sin"?

I'll be glad to answer these questions too, after you have.

[TheRuleofThree]

Re: Religion

I would just like to know how the imperfections of a creation are the creation's fault.

[Trathena]

Re: Religion

I would just like to know how the imperfections of a creation are the creation's fault.

Yes, that's part of what I'm getting at. It seems from Shigeru's post that "perfection" means "not sinning." So I'm interested--if I'm right--what he means by "sin."

I mean, he was eating a Quiznos. That's a pretty unhealthy way to treat his "temple." Is that sin? Eating something we're not supposed to eat? How far do we go with this?

And if all we needed to do to stay "perfect" is not to "sin," surely in the entire history of the world, there have been humans (besides Jesus) who haven't sinned, right? If not, then the whole concept seems impossible, destined to fail, and hence, imperfect.

And what about the animal kingdom? Does our human concept of "sin" apply to it? If not, is it, then, perfect? Is everything on the planet perfect except humans??

But I'd like Shigeru's definitions before I go further because I may be full of crap here and misunderstanding his meaning.

[Kyte30351]

Re: Religion

Maybe other creatures are just content living their more...um...natural (best word I could come up with) lives?

[Shigeru]

Re: Religion

What is your definition of "perfect", Shigeru?

And what's your definition of "imperfect"?

Can you give examples of what you consider "sin"?

I'll be glad to answer these questions too, after you have.

My definitions of perfect and imperfect would be the same as everyone else's, I would think. When I say perfect, I mean free from a defect. Complete, precise, of the best quality. That sort of thing. Imperfect would be the opposite, having fault, defect. Something other than what it was supposed to be (perfect).

Sin is any personal lack of conformity to the moral character of God, or the law of God. Sin is, by all means, "imperfection". It thinks evil, it speaks evil. It omits good. As one pastor puts it: "You sin when you do, when you say, when you think, or when you don't do, say, think what God demands you to. So it is commission, as you've often heard, or omission."

Shigeru added 6 Minutes and 1 Seconds later...

Yes, that's part of what I'm getting at. It seems from Shigeru's post that "perfection" means "not sinning." So I'm interested--if I'm right--what he means by "sin."

I mean, he was eating a Quiznos. That's a pretty unhealthy way to treat his "temple." Is that sin? Eating something we're not supposed to eat? How far do we go with this?

And if all we needed to do to stay "perfect" is not to "sin," surely in the entire history of the world, there have been humans (besides Jesus) who haven't sinned, right? If not, then the whole concept seems impossible, destined to fail, and hence, imperfect.

And what about the animal kingdom? Does our human concept of "sin" apply to it? If not, is it, then, perfect? Is everything on the planet perfect except humans??

But I'd like Shigeru's definitions before I go further because I may be full of crap here and misunderstanding his meaning.

Sin taints everything. The sinful fall of man was the sinful fall of the world. Before sin there would not be heart ache, suffering, sorrow, struggle to live, like we see everywhere, even in the animal kingdom. I wouldn't say animals "sin" but they are part of a sinful world, and as such are affected by it. I don't believe animals have a soul, or moral conscience.

And I think if you go by the definition of perfect, being without sin, then I don't think it's even closely possible to think anyone but Jesus would have been able to attain such a goal. Just the thought of it is astounding. To do nothing but the will of God, to live completely to his Law, and his moral standard without ever once falling doesn't seem like an occurrence that could happen but once through a divine being.

And I don't see how my eating of a sandwich pertains to perfection and imperfection at all. I don't presume to assume that I am perfect in the slightest sense.

Shigeru added 2 Minutes and 20 Seconds later...

I would just like to know how the imperfections of a creation are the creation's fault.

They weren't created with fault. Satan tempted them and they had every ability and reason to obey God's Law and remain perfect. They were perfect, without sin. They sinned, hence they became imperfect. They chose to disobey God.

[AnewKINDofFEELING]

Re: Religion

My definitions of perfect and imperfect would be the same as everyone else's, I would think. When I say perfect, I mean free from a defect. Complete, precise, of the best quality. That sort of thing. Imperfect would be the opposite, having fault, defect. Something other than what it was supposed to be (perfect).

That's pretty much the point I'm making. Perfection, as you describe it, is impossible. As that kind of perfection would breed stagnation, which is a defect. Thus, perfection was never reached. Perfection is the rabbit to the greyhound.

AnewKINDofFEELING added 3 Minutes and 27 Seconds later...

They weren't created with fault. Satan tempted them and they had every ability and reason to obey God's Law and remain perfect. They were perfect, without sin. They sinned, hence they became imperfect. They chose to disobey God.

Which makes it God's fault for giving humans the power to choose. Not just that, he made them so weak in their resolve that they couldn't resist the temptation. That, to me, shows that they were created with fault.

[Shigeru]

Re: Religion

That's pretty much the point I'm making. Perfection, as you describe it, is impossible. As that kind of perfection would breed stagnation, which is a defect. Thus, perfection was never reached. Perfection is the rabbit to the greyhound.

AnewKINDofFEELING added 3 Minutes and 27 Seconds later...

Which makes it God's fault for giving humans the power to choose. Not just that, he made them so weak in their resolve that they couldn't resist the temptation. That, to me, shows that they were created with fault.

How would everyone being perfect not be an amazing thing? There would be personality, still. And if everything and everyone was perfect, you wouldn't notice a lack of imperfection. Everything would be as great as it could be, so you'd never think "Wow, this is dull." The use of stagnation would be entirely relative. You assume perfection would make everyone feel bored and dull.

Adam and Eve were created for perfection and harmony with him. They chose to believe that they had the right to believe and choose whether God was telling the truth to them or not. God gave them everything they needed. They had every chance to remain perfect. I don't see that as a flaw, or a fault to God at all. They had every opportunity to be what God had for them to be, and they decided not to remain that.

[Trathena]

Re: Religion

Ok, so you believe in a literal Adam and Eve? A literal 6-day creation? Does this mean that you believe in everything the Bible teaches?

My definitions of perfect and imperfect would be the same as everyone else's, I would think. When I say perfect, I mean free from a defect. Complete, precise, of the best quality. That sort of thing.

Ok, but do you understand that this isn't everyone's idea of perfection? We all have different ideas of perfection. We all have different ideas of imperfection. We all have a different concept of "defect." These terms are meaningless in any kind of universal sense. Sure we can describe a concrete object as "perfect," but what does that really mean outside of ourselves?

"Spiritual perfection" is meaningless. We can't begin to understand it or agree on what that means. The primitive, child-like, naive, BORING description of the Garden of Eden is not "perfect" to me. The primitive, child-like, naive, EVIL Jehovah is not a creature that I could ever worship, so his concept of "perfection" isn't something to which I'd ever want to aspire.

I do understand that your belief system will explain away my attitude as due to "sin," but I'd guess that we have completely different ideas of what's "sinful" too. Or whether the concept of "sin" means anything at all.