Dredg & Catch Without Arms seems like it's sound was

[amitface]

re: Dredg & Catch Without Arms seems like it's sound wa

Dang, eBay? I 'bought' mine for a cent at Best Buy.

[Arctic Circle]

Re: re: Dredg & Catch Without Arms seems like it's sound

thanks. i put about an hour into that post.

sorry, i dont have an extra copy. it was a christmas gift from one of my friends - i think he got it off ebay.

That's what I was afraid of.
Unfortunately, I have no credit card, so I can't register on eBay.
Hopefully the banks will accept my application after I get my next pay stub.

But, yeah, DVD aside, I must definitely say that I love all of dredg's music.
Sure, there are some song I like more than others, but I vertainly appreciate all of their music.

[cyrinic]

re: Dredg & Catch Without Arms seems like it's sound wa

well said.

[BentTwig]

re: Dredg & Catch Without Arms seems like it's sound wa

I'll also say that this will be very long, but hopefully good. And let me say I love all their albums, but CWAO is my least favorite. Just like the album analysis on this site, I could be completly wrong but this is what I think.

My friend came up with this idea, so i'll give him credit, but It's pretty obvious that CWOA is more mainstream (not poppy) and less obscure. We believe that if you look at the lyrics they describe why the album is like it is, and not obscure and very different.

I mean just at a composition and musical theory standpoint, CWOA's structure, form, composition, etc. is less complex. If you look at leitmotif and el cielo, there are a lot more songs that are based in a complex time signature like 12/8, 6/8 and others, and (especially in el cielo) there are a lot of time changes. If you argue, listen to Sanzen, which undergoes I believe 4 time changes, and triangle which starts out in what i believe is 6/8 then when the chanting comes in it switches to 4/4 then goes back to 6/8 (or can be seen as 12/8). CWAO stays in mainly 4/4 time(just off the top of my head I think all songs remain 4/4 through the whole album). On a technical standpoint changes like this make the music more complex, and therefore less artists move towards complex or even asymetrical meters and tend to stay in simple meters, like 4/4, which is much easier to compose in and found in probably 90% or greater of all mainstream songs. Also, there is less repetition in the forms of their first two albums. CWOA tends two follow the verse, chorus, verse, chorus, changeup, chorus pattern. Where the other two don't really have a set pattern that most of the songs follow. El Cielo also contains multiple types of different instruments that CWOA doesn't; like trumpet, cello's and other strings or completly different instruments, like in elaphant in the delta waves. Adding the instruments to the music takes a greater understanding of the concepts of music, and is more difficult to create than just standard voice, guitar, bass, drums music. Or you could look at the tempos, scale intervals, rythyms, and plain speed of leitmotif and compare their complexities to the simplistic tempos etc. in CWOA.
edit: Oh yah, also El Cielo and especially leitmotif have a heavier sound, especially when you compare choruses of the two verses CWOA, and in the music industry today, heavier songs don't generate as many sales as the less heavy songs.

If you were to argue that on a compositional level and theoretical standpoint CWOA is more complex than their other works, I would seriously question your musical knowledge, since it obviously isn;t.

I believe that even dredg knows that their newest albums is less complex, and at looking at the lyrics I think my point gets proven that they are trying to explain why the album is simple. Other than the obvious "im not your star/ im not that beam of light... while mines on a diet" There are many other lines that I believe show and explanation of why the music is what it is.

I believe to start out, ode to the sun is what the chorus states; an "offer" to the listener to except this more mainstream album

Then bug eyes says "where is my future?/im gonna need a home/ you'd expect the same/" This could possibly be saying that they need money and are therefore going to do something that is similar to mainstream rock so they will be able to afford a future and a home.

All of the title track Gavin said was aimed at the music industry, but also can be added to my theory.

Not that simple says "i have sawed it down to the bone/ the canyons are to deep" I think their saying they've taking music to its simplest form, the bone, and saying that the "canyons are too deep" I beilieve is a reference to the "The canyon behind her" which is a complex song (even with its own 4 part male chorale) saying that songs like that are too deep, or more complex and meaty, not just the to the bone.

Zebraskin says "i took my chances" Thats exactly what this album is, a big chance, especially to see if hardcore fans will like it

The tanbark I believe, with ode to the sun and hungover is probably the closest song to their old stuff with the breakdown and all, and the lyrics support this. "The old returns/ while the new can bore... its overgrown." I think this can be pretty literal, since this song is the closest to their old stuff the"old returns" but since this song like all the other ones are pretty simple they "can bore". And music that is simple and similar to this album is "overgrown" in the music industry.

Sang real really excited me when it said "Soon this all will come to an end" I think they're saying that the simplicity will come to an end after this album, which i like, but cetain others may not. I read an interview with Drew and the interviewer asked if they would ever bring back the instrumentals and less lyric based songs, and Drew said definately. Also dredg has put a particular emphasis on this line, considering that it is on one of their t-shirts. I think their was a significant reason behind that.

Planting seeds says "look at what i have found/ a seashell in a sea of shells" What is special about a sea shell in a sea of shells. Its just another shell like all the rest, I believe this is a metaphor for CWOA. Its a great album but its just another sea shell. "I can't believe what we have become" Could this mean that Gavin is actually shocked that they wrote the album this way?

Spitshine is another strong example. "You spitshined my corroded halo then packaged it away." THis could be a reference to the record company or someone else saying that they took CWOA (or I believe coquette) which was a corroded halo, or a unique almbum, then spitshined it to make it sound mainstream to sell it. I believe this song was one of the last songs they wrote, so this could be possible.

Jamais vu could add to the record company theory, heavily. "looked to the sky...got to reappear up there/ its where I want to be" Maybe Gavin's saying he wants to be listened to by many people which is up there. "I'm not inside you/ you're all around me" dredg may not want to be inside the the record label, but the record label is all around him wanting them to write more standard songs, which isn't what dredg is about. "Is this what you needed to hear to comfort you?" Is this more mainstream album what the record was wanting them to produce? Maybe Gavin is asking that question.

Hung over says "So long to the hurt and stormy weather/ its time for a cleansing nice try but you cant avoid this forever/ you know it makes you feel good." I beleive he saying to someone or the record company goodbye to the low sales of their previous cd's. But he wants to clean away the new mainstream sound and the record company cant avoid it forever.

Matroshka says "to criticize and judge/ how did I end up here/ with these standards im suppoesed to love/ make me dissapear" I think Gavin is saying that why should he criticize and judge dredg's music, it should be left the way it should. I think hes saying he's supposed to have these simplistic standards but he doesn't want them.

I could be 100% wrong on this topic, but I believe that I could be on to something. If their next album is more complex, then I think I might be right, if its more mainstream again, then I'm probably wrong. I asked Drew who "you" was in most of the songs but he hasn't responded. Maybe you is the record company, maybe not. I just believe that the lyrics are an explanation of why the album is what it is, simpler than the last two. If you read this, thank you for reading, even if you completely disagree. Sorry if i completely wasted your time, but this is my take on the album. Please comment on my ideas, negative or positive, go ahead and bash me I don't care.

[cyrinic]

re: Dredg & Catch Without Arms seems like it's sound wa

wow man that was thorough as hell. well done.

I'm not sure that I could say that less commoly used time signatures and more instruments means better music, but I completely understand your point. I love "el cielo;" it's by far my favorite album ever. I like it better than CWA. I'm listening to it right now extremely loudly through a good set of headphones (to drown out the giggling of my roommate and his girlfriend).

---->The thing that makes dredg DREDG to me is that they can make songs in 4/4 time, with a guitar, bass, drums, vocals (and the slide guitar, once in a while) and still make a phenominal record.<----

So, yeah, in some points of view it isnt "better music," but to me it's still fucking good.

And to me, at least, if they want to aim thier music for making money (and still make the music that they have said is thiers, original and true) it's a lot better than them having a shitty label and not being able to put out records and come over to my neck of the woods once in a while in a good venue.

[BentTwig]

Re: re: Dredg &amp; Catch Without Arms seems like it's sound

wow man that was thorough as hell. well done.

I'm not sure that I could say that less commoly used time signatures and more instruments means better music, but I completely understand your point.
---->The thing that makes dredg DREDG to me is that they can make songs in 4/4 time, with a guitar, bass, drums, vocals (and the slide guitar, once in a while) and still make a phenominal record.<----

So, yeah, in some points of view it isnt "better music," but to me it's still fucking good. .

Thanks man I spent a lot of time developing that and just reading the lyrics. I also agree with complexity doesn't mean better music. To many people simpler is better, but to me I like it a little more complex and original. I think that dredg finds a middle road between complexity and simplicity, kindof like the beatles or floyd. They aren't really simple like a lot of stuff, and they are'nt real complex like mathcore bands or other stuff. Its just when I first heard CWOA I can say I was a little disapointed, but I still really liked it, and when I came up with this theory, I actually liked the album a whole lot better, since I understood it more.

[Teotl]

That's why it's called Catch Without Arms.

It's a catch, without arms. A compromise.

[evasivetear]

i think you really thought about that topic a lot and you put some good ideas down there, but I have to disagree with your meanings to the lyrics...

if you read into the lyrics the way you have, under the assumption that they're commenting on how uncomplex their album is in relation to their last, then you'll find lyrics that will match up with what you're saying...

we can even look at el cielo and make similar ties to the same theme...

NOTE-KEEP IN MIND, I DO NOT THINK THESE ARE THE MEANINGS OF THESE SONGS...I'm showing that you can take lyrics and make them mean what you want....

same ol' road - they're going down the same ol' road, making a complex album, when all they want is a modest house in a modest neighborhood....so should they make a more simple album? are they trying to hard?

sanzen - gavin is having a hard time "concentrat(ing) on this(writing)...it's over-thought (and) anticipated"
while "longing for what has been lost"...(a more simple life before becoming a band?) " And longing for what hasn’t been obtained" ..mainstream success?

eighteen people - "Rents are rising, our lease is up,Culture is down, spirits are jaded" a line speaking that their art is flowing into deaf ears...and that they may have to 'dumb down' their work if they want to pay rent....or else they'll get kicked out since the lease is up....

whoa is me - could be a song refering to the regrets and doubts of creating a complex album....but due to the art going on deaf ears...as talked about in 18 people, the income has left the band with cracked soil and brown leaves...a dry lake bed representing their bank accounts....but if they could take those regrets and doubts...and create a more simplistic album, then when the water (money) comes...their bank accounts will overflow

the canyon behind her - half of me is gone, the lonesome part is left, i cannot find the other half....the other half could be the success that dredg is looking for, and by alienating themselves by making a complex album, they're going to find themselves alone without fans and with their creative energy drained....



again i must state that i don't believe these to be the meanings of these songs....but i hope i made my point. i dont' believe dredg compromised their art...they did something different because they wanted to and didn't want to make another el cielo again. as they've said "we could have made another el cielo but we chose to do something different" i think it's just as deep as that....

i appologize if you thought i was bashing you in this post....that wasn't my intent...you obviously put a lot of time iinto your original post and all i hope i did with this post is make you aware that you can interpet lyrics anyway you want...but that doesn't mean that that's what they were about...heh

have a good one, and welcome to the board

[Starving Artist]

I'll read this later, but truly I don't find CWA to be too "popy", it has more of that sound but is far more melodic and is a change. Once dredg goes to synthetic drum beats and rap you will have good reason to hate them. But I don't feel that dredg has gone to the dark side of music and become a sellout.

[dsv]

you can take lyrics and make them mean what you want....

thats the bottom line imo. there's no right or wrong way to look at music...its all up to the listener's interpretations and i think the band wanted it that way.

both BentTwig and evasive...excellent posts.

[Arctic Circle]

re: Dredg &amp; Catch Without Arms seems like it's sound wa

BentTwig, evasive, both awesome posts, but I'm going to agree with evasive when he says, "you can interpet lyrics anyway you want."

That's the bottom line, although, BentTwig, I find your interpretation to be fascinating, as well as evasive's ... uh, false? ... interpretations.

It seems though, that in both cases, the interpretations seem like the band is conveying a very personal message.
I like to think that their songs have a more casual meaning to them ...

Edit: Just thought I should clarify, 'cause once I re-read that, I realized that it could be misleading.
When I say personal, I mean personal to dredg. Not to the individual listener.
And what I mean by casual is that the meanings behind each song can relate to a general audience.

[evasivetear]

heh, yes...false interpetations...because i don't truly believe they set out to make a mainstream album...i think they set out to make a dredg album

[Arctic Circle]

Of course.
I really didn't know any other way to put it, other than false interpretations.
It still doesn't sound right, though, since I wouldn't really consider an interpretation to be false.
Maybe if one were to make a direct statement about the album, then yes, but interpretations .... no.

[matroshka]

cyrinic, thanks for your post! i agree with you at 100% !!!

especially to this:

"now if you don't like CWA because it isn't obscure and artsy enough to not be the dreaded "pop" music, then you don't like dredg - you like "el cielo" and "leitmotif."

i`m sick and tired of this "pop" discussions about CWA...

pop music is not structured. pop music is predictable. pop music is boring. pop music is shallow.
cwa is higher mathematics (for MY ears!). cwa is full of surprises. cwa is captivating (f*** is it the right term? sorry for my english...). cwa is deep and it`s getting deeper each time you listen to it.

[evasivetear]

"pop music is not structured, pop music is predictable".......those are contradicting statements right there.

pop music is very structured....it follows a very predictable and set format.

nor is it necissarily boring...at least to the masses it's not...because due to the structure and format of pop music, those that write these songs want people to get hooked to them and get them stuck in their head....the repetition and predicatbility, combined with a constant "poppy" beat is what keeps these songs from being boring...at least at first.....that's how these people get onto the radio for so long....and sell millions of albums around the world.

if anything, albums like el cielo, francis the mute, anything by explosions in the sky....those would be considered 'boring' by many people because they aren't predictable and make people actually listen and think.

of course, those people would be wrong in considering those albums boring.....well.......i could understand on frances the mute, heh......but that's their short coming for not wanting to expand their mind beyond what the mass media tells them is popular and 'intersting'

and i am in no way supporting the majority of pop music here....some of it is good for an up-beat moment in a car ride or a moment in which you want to just turn off your brain for awhile. listening to really complex and deep music can be tiring at times..........i can only imagine writing it must be a huge strain as well and then playing it nightly on tour, over and over again.


hrm....i'm in a debating mood today...aren't I? it's been fun