download SAVIOUR here

[TheRuleofThree]

Re: download SAVIOUR here

Look - "El Cielo" is probably my favorite record of all time, bar none. There is no question in my mind that it is phenomenal. Of course it affected so many bands and people that have heard it. But MUSICALLY, is it the most challenging record to play on any given instrument? Absolutely not. Is it particularly "experimental?" To a degree, yes, but what does that even mean? The Mars Volta have "experimental" albums that I think suck compared to Deloused in the Comatorium, but they have a shit load of what sounds like flutes and saxophones caught in a tornado broken up by random bursts of Spanish Squealing. Is that progressive? The Sound of Animals Fighting have been "progressing" for a long time, and got so weird on the last record that people started wondering where all the music went. Is that progressive? As long as it gets weirder, it doesn't matter if it's not even really a "song" in the traditional sense?

The argument that "El Cielo" is this somehow an off-the-wall, never before done experimental record is a little untrue to me. It has some non-traditional elements to it, like the fact that it has a concept and is based on a painting, but other than that it's got basic songs and instrumentals with some goodies thrown in. Otherwise, it's just got great production and isn't your "typical" rock record.

And since you haven't heard the new one, you can't really say it ISN'T the same type of record. You've heard one song, which tells you what 1/18th of the record sounds like.

[FeebleFables]

Re: download SAVIOUR here

feeble, i don't mean to pigeonhole you, but you come off as one of the few surviving tool fans still unsure of whether to hop on the dredg bandwagon or not. a lot of people were drawn in by leitmotif, a few left after being disappointed by the "softness" of el cielo, and almost all of the rest left after being disappointed by catch's "poppiness." i'm happy to see you're still around, but it seems like you're still expecting dredg to get "proggier" when they have only done the exact opposite as their careers have progressed.

you keep bringing up the song triangle, like it's some career defining song. when really, theruleofthree just articulated how that song is basically an anomaly on el cielo. it seems like you want to define musical "progression" as prog rock. now, i know "prog" stands for progressive, but that word doesn't mean anything in this context because it's just a pretentious genre name.

so can you admit that "progress" is and always will be subjective, and arguing about it is as pointless as arguing what is good and not good?

You are pigeonholing me. I am a fan of prog, but I'm not unsure of jumping on any bandwagon. El Cielo is one of my favorite records of all time, CWA, not so much, and the new songs I've heard aren't tickling my fancy. In my opinion they have regressed (from what I like) And of course I understand that progression as an adjective is subjective.

[Debtfoabaaposba]

Re: download SAVIOUR here

I didn't say it didn't have an "impact." But again... a lot of El Cielo isn't really that complicated or progressive. It's simply a well-done record. None of the songs are challenging on any instrument, are they? You say that nothing on "El Cielo" is easily digestible, easy and quick to pickup of reproduce? Really? "Of The Room" and "Convalescent" aren't simple songs?

This is all a matter of opinion and none of it is really grounded in objective fact. I understand your point of view and it's fine as a point of view, but I don't think it translates to a broader point that can be made about all music. It's simply an opinion. Again, if you had heard "Convalescent" first off of "El Cielo," what would you say about dredg's progression from Leitmotif?

I somewhat agree, but I also wouldn't define progression as the complexity or difficulty of a song. Almost all of my favorite dredg songs, or any song for that matter, could be considered simple or easy to recreate.

[evasivetear]

Re: download SAVIOUR here

You are pigeonholing me. I am a fan of prog, but I'm not unsure of jumping on any bandwagon. El Cielo is one of my favorite records of all time, CWA, not so much, and the new songs I've heard aren't tickling my fancy. In my opinion they have regressed (from what I like) And of course I understand that progression as an adjective is subjective.

see now, i can't argue with a single thing you said there.

[FeebleFables]

Re: download SAVIOUR here

Look - "El Cielo" is probably my favorite record of all time, bar none. There is no question in my mind that it is phenomenal. Of course it affected so many bands and people that have heard it. But MUSICALLY, is it the most challenging record to play on any given instrument? Absolutely not. Is it particularly "experimental?" To a degree, yes, but what does that even mean? The Mars Volta have "experimental" albums that I think suck compared to Deloused in the Comatorium, but they have a shit load of what sounds like flutes and saxophones caught in a tornado broken up by random bursts of Spanish Squealing. Is that progressive? The Sound of Animals Fighting have been "progressing" for a long time, and got so weird on the last record that people started wondering where all the music went. Is that progressive? As long as it gets weirder, it doesn't matter if it's not even really a "song" in the traditional sense?

The argument that "El Cielo" is this somehow an off-the-wall, never before done experimental record is a little untrue to me. It has some non-traditional elements to it, like the fact that it has a concept and is based on a painting, but other than that it's got basic songs and instrumentals with some goodies thrown in. Otherwise, it's just got great production and isn't your "typical" rock record.

And since you haven't heard the new one, you can't really say it ISN'T the same type of record. You've heard one song, which tells you what 1/18th of the record sounds like.

At this point I'm not really disagreeing with you. But since we're talking about SONGS and not production, I've heard more than just one song from the the new album.

I would say though, that El Cielo really WAS off-the-wall and unique at the time, as well as it being beautiful, and it captured this amazing somber essence that had the rare power of making me tear up when I first heard it. That's some power, it defies genre.

[drummerjs]

Re: download SAVIOUR here

I think dredg has definitely changed, and whether or not it is for better or worse is up to the listener to decide in my opinion. In my eyes, they have not necessarily gotten better or worse, it is simply different. I will always love leitmotif, as it is the first I heard. After listening to that for a little while, I went and bought El Cielo without reading any reviews about it or anything. I was blown away at how much they had changed. Still, even then I was unable to truly, in my mind, say they had gotten better or worse. It was simply a change, and for me that is what made dredg interesting, and that is why, after a month of listening to El Cielo, I went out and bought Catch Without Arms. Again, when I heard that, I was pretty surprised at their change. I liked CWA, but I didn't think it was a "better or worse" progression again. It was just different. I'll admit that CWA took a little while longer to grow on me than the other two, but it was still a good album.

That was back in 2005, a few months after CWA was released. Since then, I have listened to everything that I can find from them, and I can say without a doubt that they have never stayed in one place musically. When I heard they were making a new album, I was really stoked. That is when I joined this board. When I heard their new stuff, it was another curveball. I believe I heard the Warbler first, that wasn't really enough to determine their new sound, but it was pretty good nonetheless. Then It's Not Worth It. Then the acoustic Ireland. Savior, Waterborne, I Don't Know. These new songs are all different from each other. Yes, they may be more straightforward than their back catalog, but it is a new step for dredg, and I think that is what defines them as a band (their motif is "change" after all).

With all that said, it is still too early to tell what the record will sound like. The studio version of Savior is produced very well, and it is dynamically different than the live version. On that same note, the other songs we have heard live are definitely going to come across quite different on the album, just like on previous releases, and just like their live shows now. Does The Canyon Behind Her come across the same live? No, because a live show is just the four of them playing live, no overdubs, no orchestras, no choir, just the four of them.

Until we have heard the studio versions of these songs, it is pointless to try to determine which direction they have gone as a band. I am sure the album will be good, although I think I might disagree with the subject matter.

The above is my opinion. I am on campus, waiting for my class to begin, so I am not responsible for my rambling. Thanks for reading.

[Gnomad]

Re: download SAVIOUR here

Dude, great post. Right on.

[TheRuleofThree]

Re: download SAVIOUR here

Seconded. Especially the statement about "The Canyon Behind Her." Great song, but the performances don't do any justice to what the song does on the album, both as a thematic closer and what they did in the studio.

Which should be a caution to people judging new songs by their live performances.

[sangreal314]

Re: download SAVIOUR here

i pretty much agree. except for one thing. 'I think dredg has progressed, and whether or not it is for better or worse is up to the listener to decide" how can something progress and not be better? that statement doesn't make any sense. now if you exchange the word progress with change then we agree completely.

[evasivetear]

Re: download SAVIOUR here

drummerjs, good post.

basically said some stuff i did, and more.

switching gears a bit, canyon.....i actually prefer it live due to some of the improving they will do during it & such. saviour, I like better in the studio form. that's all i wanted to say...no other point to be made

[FeebleFables]

Re: download SAVIOUR here

feeble, i don't mean to pigeonhole you, but you come off as one of the few surviving tool fans still unsure of whether to hop on the dredg bandwagon or not. a lot of people were drawn in by leitmotif, a few left after being disappointed by the "softness" of el cielo, and almost all of the rest left after being disappointed by catch's "poppiness." i'm happy to see you're still around, but it seems like you're still expecting dredg to get "proggier" when they have only done the exact opposite as their careers have progressed.

you keep bringing up the song triangle, like it's some career defining song. when really, theruleofthree just articulated how that song is basically an anomaly on el cielo. it seems like you want to define musical "progression" as prog rock. now, i know "prog" stands for progressive, but that word doesn't mean anything in this context because it's just a pretentious genre name.

so can you admit that "progress" is and always will be subjective, and arguing about it is as pointless as arguing what is good and not good?

Oh, and by the way, that wasn't me using Triangle as an example for anything. Great song though.

[drummerjs]

Re: download SAVIOUR here

i pretty much agree. except for one thing. 'I think dredg has progressed, and whether or not it is for better or worse is up to the listener to decide" how can something progress and not be better? that statement doesn't make any sense. now if you exchange the word progress with change then we agree completely.

well any art's quality (percieved or inherent) is in the eye of the beholder. thats what i meant.

one can progress and it may or may not be good, someone could progress toward being a drug addict or they could progress toward being sober. its all relative to one's state of mind. not to be all philosophical or anything

[FeebleFables]

Re: download SAVIOUR here

someone could progress toward being a drug addict

That's a stretch. I tend to take the standard definition more: "movement to a further or higher stage" or "growth or development; continuous improvement"

[drummerjs]

Re: download SAVIOUR here

well that is definitely a good point. but if that person thought being a drug addict would be an improvement to himself...like if he wanted to be like nikki sixx...yeah im stretching it with the drug addict reference.

[sangreal314]

Re: download SAVIOUR here

well any art's quality (percieved or inherent) is in the eye of the beholder. thats what i meant.

one can progress and it may or may not be good, someone could progress toward being a drug addict or they could progress toward being sober. its all relative to one's state of mind. not to be all philosophical or anything

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/progress

almost every definition of the word progress implies it being positive. if you use it in the negative tense it is no longer progess, it is regress. you can only say they have progressed if you feel like it is for the better. and not everyone agrees with that. i think the only thing we can all agree on is that they have changed.