The Obama Administration: Gay Rights

[Trathena]

Re: The Obama Administration: Gay Rights

I don't care, I'm fucking fighting with Brock tonight whether he deserves it or not!!

[TheRuleofThree]

Re: The Obama Administration: Gay Rights

And now Obama. Pretty, pretty words (and I don't just mean regarding civil rights). And before he was even in office he snuggled up with Rick Warren. You mention that it's too soon to judge him and complain. But he's the one who invited Rick Fucking Warren to his inauguration. It's not too soon for us to be suspicious, Gnomad. Obama set that in motion. He sent a very early message that in a competition between us or the anti-gay rights fundamentalists, we'd lose. So, yes, we're very nervous, justifiably so.

Obama is on the wrong side of history. He's not even mentioned what's going on in the States except as a joke. We must stay on him about this. I mean, really, it's not like we're storming Washington. We're just keeping the conversation continually open because we already know that if we don't, we'll have another Clinton betrayal. We've known all along that Obama = Clinton. That's not necessarily a completely bad thing. Clinton was--by and large--a damn good president.

While the general tone of your argument is one of "C'mon Obama - you're better than this," (an argument that I support and agree with wholeheartedly), statements like the ones bolded above very clearly seem to imply that Obama doesn't intend to do what he's repeatedly asserted over and over again that he WILL do. And the only argument against his intentions is that he hasn't done it yet. Five months into office.

But no, when I made my statement I wasn't really referring to you as much as I was the movement as a whole. I'm just trying to highlight that the gay rights groups are playing politics in this just as much as he is. Obama can't afford to focus exclusively on gay rights, as much as I'm sure a part of him wants to, because of the politics. And gay rights groups can't afford to stop their advocating and lobbying because of the politics as well - patience, working on the President's terms, things like that are characteristics that aren't present in successful non-profits and movements. But make no mistake - it is politics. People like Dan Savage and Andrew Sullivan know that it pressures Obama much more to make sweeping statements about Obama's supposed lack of empathy than it does to say "He's got a lot on his plate, but he promised he was going to get this done and he needs to make good on his promise at least before the end of his first term if he wants our votes again."

People criticized Obama for allowing Rick Warren to speak at his Inauguration, saying that it was catering to the extreme right. But guess who hasn't said a word against Obama in these first five months? Rick Warren. Notice how the attacks on Obama as somehow being un-Christian or against the religious right have all but vanished? Obama is a different kind of politician. He slow plays issues specifically to out-maneuver his opponents. He did this with Clinton, he did it with McCain, and he's currently in the process of doing it to Cheney and torture apologists. The same thing goes with this issue. Obama knows that if he moved to repeal DADT right now, or make declarative statements that the fantastic legislation in multiple states legalizing gay marriage should continue nationally, it would be the single most frequently heard campaign from the right in the 2010 elections - "In a time of economic turmoil, two wars and and uncertain future for our children, President Obama and the liberals in congress focused their attention on gay marriage." Then our democratic candidates would have to come out against the measures in some cases to preempt their opponents, and we'd have a watered down group of senators and congressmen coming in with pledges to vote against whatever else Obama passes relating to gay marriage.

Or... Obama focuses on major issues that don't divide so cleanly as gay marriage. He puts his energy in passing economic stimulus to create jobs, refocuses our foreign strategy and does his best to wind down the Iraq occupation, raises MPG standards and passes energy legislation, takes major steps towards solving the health care crisis, moves forward on toning Israel down and getting an international consensus on Iran... and guess who just gave his party the winning ticket in the 2010 elections? He gets a stronger majority in both the House and the Senate... and then the pathway to passing major legislation securing rights for gay couples suddenly gets much easier, and becomes a footnote in his overall resume for the 2012 elections.

Put more simply - Obama has asked that the right chill out with cultural issues, arguing that while the high rates of abortions are an issue, we have bigger fish to fry. And that argument swings both ways (no pun intended... okay, it was).

I recognize that this is all a little depressing from a cynic's point of view - the fact that the President can't use the bully pulpit to simply do what's right and make it happen. But people who argue about the gamesmanship of politics don't understand that it's particularly this game that protects the country when it's done correctly, and Obama has clearly shown that there is a way to play the game and still stay true to your values and principles. People like Ralph Nader and Ron Paul are important and inspiring because they think outside of the game, outside of the big processes that we've created... but the reason they don't get elected is because they aren't willing to accept the reality of our country's electorate, who thrives on news cycles and good guy/bad guy narratives. The secret to a successful politician is someone who is a good salesman AND a believer in what's right. Obama has a plan for this. I don't expect anyone to blindly trust in him - frankly, he's not counting on it either. But I do think that people in the past have underestimated his ability to read the scenery correctly and proceed cautiously to get the best possible outcome.

Sorry this ended up so long.

[Trathena]

Re: The Obama Administration: Gay Rights

...statements like the ones bolded above very clearly seem to imply that Obama doesn't intend to do what he's repeatedly asserted over and over again that he WILL do.

Fair enough. I see where you're coming from. In my defense, I'll just say that much of that comes from fear of his actions, not predictions. That maybe he won't. That his actions make me damned nervous. But, yeah, I should choose my words better sometimes.

And you (and others) keep repeating the "he's only been in office a short time" defense. Try to see it from our end: Five months is a long damn time to keep quiet about this. We're heading toward half a year. What if we just sat around month after month, week after week and said nothing? We just lost marriage rights in California. We lost adoption rights in Arkansas. Gays and lesbians are still be kicked out of the army. With all this going on, we cannot just sit there, quietly, sit there week after week, month after month. What would that say about us? What would that look like to gay and lesbian teens?

I know the timing sucks. I know that Obama has to spend 99.9% of his time on the war and the economy. We're asking for 1% of his time to just say something.

Or, better yet, we're asking to be able to keep this conversation going without being told to shut up by the very Democrats who begged for our votes five months ago.

I'm just trying to highlight that the gay rights groups are playing politics in this just as much as he is.

Absolutely. Life-saving politics.

And I completely agree with you and sincerely believe that Obama would like nothing more than to sign an executive order giving us complete and unequivocal civil rights, including marriage.

But guess who hasn't said a word against Obama in these first five months? Rick Warren.

You make a damn good point here. A damn good one. Actually, this might be the first convincing argument I've heard on this so far.

He slow plays issues specifically to out-maneuver his opponents. He did this with Clinton, he did it with McCain, and he's currently in the process of doing it to Cheney and torture apologists.

OK, I'm gonna yammer on for a minute here. I recently read an essay where the guy was discussing Obama's recent speech in which he addressed investigating the previous adm. for war crimes. Here's what he said:

I have opposed the creation of such a Commission because I believe that our existing democratic institutions are strong enough to deliver accountability. The Congress can review abuses of our values, and there are ongoing inquiries by the Congress into matters like enhanced interrogation techniques. The Department of Justice and our courts can work through and punish any violations of our laws.

OK, I'm sure it'll come as no surprise to you that one of the many reasons I didn't vote for Clinton is that I knew there wasn't a chance in hell that she'd investigate the Bush adm. for anything. I'd hoped Obama would, but I didn't hold my breath. And here is: all but telling Congress to go after them.

When I read that, I thought, "Maybe that's what he's doing with gay rights. Keeping quiet, letting the states continue to do what we're doing. Using silence as unspoken consent."

Obama has a plan for this. I don't expect anyone to blindly trust in him - frankly, he's not counting on it either. But I do think that people in the past have underestimated his ability to read the scenery correctly and proceed cautiously to get the best possible outcome.

People also overestimate him, Brock. I don't mean you, but there are a lot of pundits and bloggers out there who can't stand any criticism of the man, and they fan-wank everything he does, and everything he doesn't do.

I think that Obama wants criticism; I think he'd rather have that than a bunch of yes men.

Sorry this ended up so long.

People who complain about and refuse to read long posts are non-reading morons who aren't worth debating anyway.

[BuddyGoodness]

Re: The Obama Administration: Gay Rights

I am afraid of big words.

[Trathena]

Re: The Obama Administration: Gay Rights

I'm apprehensive of polysyllabic linguistic formations.

[Knifeboy]

Re: The Obama Administration: Gay Rights

i brain hurt!
i brain hurt!!

[BuddyGoodness]

Re: The Obama Administration: Gay Rights

I prefer monosyllabic arguments with the occasional affirmative grunt.

[TheRuleofThree]

Re: The Obama Administration: Gay Rights

Ah.

[IKnockStuffDown]

Re: The Obama Administration: Gay Rights

Hmm.

[Trathena]

Re: The Obama Administration: Gay Rights

Well, well, well.

Benefits proposed for same-sex partners of U.S. diplomats

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. State Department wants to extend the same benefits to partners of gay and lesbian American diplomats as their heterosexual counterparts enjoy, according to a notice that Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton is preparing to send out to employees.

---
Brock, do you have any clue as to what this could be about?

Advocate.com

Congressman: White House LGBT Announcements Imminent
By Kerry Eleveld

California representative Howard Berman predicted in an interview Thursday that the White House would be presenting new information regarding LGBT policies sometime before annual pride celebrations in June.

[BuddyGoodness]

Re: The Obama Administration: Gay Rights

Maybe he listened to you. He does surf this board.

[TheRuleofThree]

Re: The Obama Administration: Gay Rights

I wish I knew, Trathena. My guess - he's probably going to make a general statement on his intentions. People in this country need to be educated about what DADT actually is - a law, not a policy. Thus, he needs congressional action to change the law.

[Ars Sycro]

Re: The Obama Administration: Gay Rights

Maybe he listened to you. He does surf this board.

Shhh!!! That was supposed to be a secret!

[Trathena]

Re: The Obama Administration: Gay Rights

Maybe he listened to you. He does surf this board.

hahaha! OK, what you just said here? It made me feel so insignificant, you can't even imagine.

My guess - he's probably going to make a general statement on his intentions. People in this country need to be educated about what DADT actually is - a law, not a policy. Thus, he needs congressional action to change the law.

This is all I want from him (for now). But I hope he doesn't think he has to talk down to us. We're the last people that he needs to explain DADT to.

What people in this country need to be educated about is just how much more harmful DADT made an already bad situation.

[cribble]

Re: The Obama Administration: Gay Rights

Shit is kicking off, by the looks of things