Funny but possibly true

[dsv]

Re: Funny but possibly true

ANKoT

ahh, i see what you did there. anewkindofthought ;]

[TheRuleofThree]

Re: Funny but possibly true

good points? close the fucking thread, i say.

rule was totally on point with that one. walk-off grand slam.

Ha! Thanks dude. I think I agree with his basic point, though, that no one has a right to be rude to another person for no reason. I'm routinely frustrated and taken aback by people in service situations that act as though they simply don't give a shit about me or my family and act rudely, inconsiderately, or like I'm not even there. We've all had that sort of experience. Even if the person is distracted by something in their personal life, sometimes it can come across as though they want you to know that they don't give a shit. When the person acting that way isn't a low-income worker in a shitty job supporting kids but is in actuality the leader singer in a multiplatinum band, I think I can understand where the frustration comes from.

Truly though, I think it's a matter of opinion, because I love Tool and I think very highly of Maynard. But I'm not under any illusions - I'm sure the comments and behaviors from him that I consider to be signs of honesty and intelligence can just as easily (and fairly) be interpreted as dismissive and derogatory. So yet again we're talking in circles. ANKoT said it perfectly, actually - it's mostly just the icing on the cake.

[dsv]

Re: Funny but possibly true

I think the distinction (for me, at least) is that Maynard goes out of his way to be an asshole a lot of the times. I think the only other person that approaches him in that aspect is Mike Patton. Both insanely gifted vocalists. Both assholes. Patton does seem a bit more facetious about it.

how is mikey an asshole? i don't see it.

i wish you'd keep him out of this. couldn't care less about maynard though...

Good points.

good points? close the fucking thread, i say.

rule was totally on point with that one. walk-off grand slam.

[TheRuleofThree]

Re: Funny but possibly true

To an extent. However, look at a guy like Neil Peart as an example of not dealing with the crowds. The guy hates the whole public persona thing. He hates signing autographs. He hates being told that he's amazing. He spells it out in Beyond the Lighted Stage. He just doesn't do publicity. He leaves that part for Geddy and Alex.

This is just one of those places where we're going to have to agree to disagree. I just don't believe that calling yourself an artist gives you carte blanche to be an asshole.

I deal with the public all day. I have had "community organizers" state in public hearings that I said "poor people do not deserve our help" when I said nothing of the sort. I deal with contractors that blame me for them not getting paid. They blame me for a lot of things. I would love to tell them "You're wrong, asshole. Get over it." However, I am paid good money not to be a dick. I take the abuse and keep the discourse civilized. If I snapped back, it would reflect poorly on myself, my profession, and my company. I may still be considered an expert in my field, but a lot of people would elect to avoid my services. For me, the same holds true for musicians.

If you don't agree, cool, but I'm not going to disregard my own scruples for someone else's sake.

I understand your point and you're absolutely right - no matter how we'd like to divorce an art from its communication and marketing, perceptions matter, and the way an artist behaves and interacts with others can have a profound effect on their success. There's definitely a fine line - while I'm sure most people on here would sympathize with Gavin sounding tired and frustrated when he's asked for the 100th time why they "went in a different direction" on this record, no one would defend an artist acting rude or condescending to someone that approaches them and just offers a sincere "Love your music, thanks for all you do."

I'm not saying be an artist gives carte blanche - all I'm saying is that a lot of fans (not the type of people that come to this board) feel entitled to special attention and personalized attention when they meet and interact with musicians they enjoy. And I think that feeds asshole rock star behavior. It's a vicious cycle.

[Sittingsideways]

Re: Funny but possibly true

To an extent. However, look at a guy like Neil Peart as an example of not dealing with the crowds. The guy hates the whole public persona thing. He hates signing autographs. He hates being told that he's amazing. He spells it out in Beyond the Lighted Stage. He just doesn't do publicity. He leaves that part for Geddy and Alex.

This is just one of those places where we're going to have to agree to disagree. I just don't believe that calling yourself an artist gives you carte blanche to be an asshole.

I deal with the public all day. I have had "community organizers" state in public hearings that I said "poor people do not deserve our help" when I said nothing of the sort. I deal with contractors that blame me for them not getting paid. They blame me for a lot of things. I would love to tell them "You're wrong, asshole. Get over it." However, I am paid good money not to be a dick. I take the abuse and keep the discourse civilized. If I snapped back, it would reflect poorly on myself, my profession, and my company. I may still be considered an expert in my field, but a lot of people would elect to avoid my services. For me, the same holds true for musicians.

If you don't agree, cool, but I'm not going to disregard my own scruples for someone else's sake.

Yeah but a job like customer service, or administration calls for these kinds of interactions with people. Its almost guaranteed that you will have these interactions... its expected. iI know, i work retail. Does being a musician include being bothered by fans, and having to explain their path and be a public figure? The whole conversation of "do sports stars HAVE to be a role model?". The MLB, NFL, and NBA all have rules that you HAVE to answer the medias questions, and to do so in a professional matter and it comes along with the job... if your a dick then you get fined. I think that is horseshit. If you lose a game on a bad call, you shouldn't have to be forced to answer questions about it, because a terrible comment is sure to come.

My point is, just because you are popular in pop culture does not require you to do the jobs of being a public figure... and people are foolish to cut any kind of possible life changing art just because you heard someone calling their fans dumbasses. Who gives a shit... jesus.

[Jamis who?]

Re: Funny but possibly true

I love how a Maynard discussion always finds it's way into what it seems like every topic that's posted.

[AnewKINDofFEELING]

Re: Funny but possibly true

There are a lot of people out there that don't just expect musicians to excel at music. They also expect them to be public relations professionals and social butterflies that are willing to answer every email, shake every hand, smile in every photo, and respond in all the right ways to every utterance from a fan. For a band like dredg that has experienced a moderate amount of success, it becomes hard enough. When you're someone like Maynard, you can't even leave your house without people asking you what you meant by a certain line in a song you wrote a decade ago. He has people that hang out outside of his property in Arizona. My point isn't that he has an excuse to be a dickhead - Danny Carey, for instance, has a different sort of experience, and Wayne (halycon) already shared what his interaction with him was like (although one of my best friends in Albuquerque met Danny Carey at a restaurant and said he was fantastically kind and took photos). My point is simply that it's easy for someone not in those shoes to interpret these personalities in one way when in fact we don't see the totality of their lives (the loss of privacy, the monotony of the questions asked by interviewers that most of the time don't give a shit about your art, the song requests, the unsolicited negative reviews of your music from fans that wish you would rewrite your debut, etc.). I just think that we expect far too much from musicians when the only thing we should really care about is their actual artistic output. Everything else is secondary.

To an extent. However, look at a guy like Neil Peart as an example of not dealing with the crowds. The guy hates the whole public persona thing. He hates signing autographs. He hates being told that he's amazing. He spells it out in Beyond the Lighted Stage. He just doesn't do publicity. He leaves that part for Geddy and Alex.

This is just one of those places where we're going to have to agree to disagree. I just don't believe that calling yourself an artist gives you carte blanche to be an asshole.

I deal with the public all day. I have had "community organizers" state in public hearings that I said "poor people do not deserve our help" when I said nothing of the sort. I deal with contractors that blame me for them not getting paid. They blame me for a lot of things. I would love to tell them "You're wrong, asshole. Get over it." However, I am paid good money not to be a dick. I take the abuse and keep the discourse civilized. If I snapped back, it would reflect poorly on myself, my profession, and my company. I may still be considered an expert in my field, but a lot of people would elect to avoid my services. For me, the same holds true for musicians.

If you don't agree, cool, but I'm not going to disregard my own scruples for someone else's sake.

[TheRuleofThree]

Re: Funny but possibly true

I think the biggest reason this discussion is always difficult for me is because I know several people in my personal life that are enormously gifted in artistic expression while simultaneously suffering from some pretty debilitating social/mental handicaps like Asberger's and Autism. My dad is probably the most talented musician I know - he played in session for Isaac Hayes and similar artists and toured with the Temptations as a guitarist. Underneath all of his talent, though, is an impulsive and compulsive guy that has the occasional manic episode and struggles through the most basic social interactions. He's always been that way, even when he was a child. Sometimes I even wonder if excessive musical talent is sometimes characterized by these types of "disorders" and handicaps.

There are a lot of people out there that don't just expect musicians to excel at music. They also expect them to be public relations professionals and social butterflies that are willing to answer every email, shake every hand, smile in every photo, and respond in all the right ways to every utterance from a fan. For a band like dredg that has experienced a moderate amount of success, it becomes hard enough. When you're someone like Maynard, you can't even leave your house without people asking you what you meant by a certain line in a song you wrote a decade ago. He has people that hang out outside of his property in Arizona. My point isn't that he has an excuse to be a dickhead - Danny Carey, for instance, has a different sort of experience, and Wayne (halycon) already shared what his interaction with him was like (although one of my best friends in Albuquerque met Danny Carey at a restaurant and said he was fantastically kind and took photos). My point is simply that it's easy for someone not in those shoes to interpret these personalities in one way when in fact we don't see the totality of their lives (the loss of privacy, the monotony of the questions asked by interviewers that most of the time don't give a shit about your art, the song requests, the unsolicited negative reviews of your music from fans that wish you would rewrite your debut, etc.). I just think that we expect far too much from musicians when the only thing we should really care about is their actual artistic output. Everything else is secondary.

[Jamis who?]

Re: Funny but possibly true

I actually asked Josh Homme if his side project in Them Crooked Vultures are planning a second LP, he said after Grohl is finished with the foo fighter album cycle, then after he is finished with the new soon to be Queens of the Stone age album cycle, they will start writing for a second TCV album. could be a few years from now but I'm excited for that.

[Gnomad]

Re: Funny but possibly true

I had heard it was because he was beating his girlfriend or something.

[.cheapham.]

Re: Funny but possibly true

Now, Nick Oliveri is apparently a major asshole, which is why he is no longer in QOTSA. Apparently he really had it out for Troy Van Leeuwen's old lady and he had to be fired.

I remember when all that went down. Oliveri made it sound like he was doing nothing wrong, just "some partying" or something like that, and thus Josh was the real bad guy. Sounded fishy to me all things considered.

[AnewKINDofFEELING]

Re: Funny but possibly true

I hadn't realized Nick Homme had such a bad reputation by the way. I missed out on that I guess.

Josh is more playful in his statements, but he has been known to call fans douchebags when they act like it. He makes it more personal, though. There are great videos of him on stage.

Now, Nick Oliveri is apparently a major asshole, which is why he is no longer in QOTSA. Apparently he really had it out for Troy Van Leeuwen's old lady and he had to be fired.

[.cheapham.]

Re: Funny but possibly true

I used to be one of those diehard Tool fans. But I've never been this piece of shit they tend to be generalized as. As a matter of fact, at least 80% of the people I've met from the ToolArmy website (both in person and online) have been super cool people, and are still good friends of mine to this day, even though I haven't even logged into the website in over 2 years.

Heh, right on. I was definitely playing on the generalized obnoxious tool fans I knew from highschool and such. They were a pretty major barrier preventing me from getting into the band until well after Lateralus came out. I know the generalization isn't fair, but damn those kids I knew annoyed the heck out of me.

I hadn't realized Nick Homme had such a bad reputation by the way. I missed out on that I guess.

[halcyon712]

Re: Funny but possibly true

Have you met diehard Tool fans? It's hard to blame Maynard for ripping them...

I used to be one of those diehard Tool fans. But I've never been this piece of shit they tend to be generalized as. As a matter of fact, at least 80% of the people I've met from the ToolArmy website (both in person and online) have been super cool people, and are still good friends of mine to this day, even though I haven't even logged into the website in over 2 years.

[AnewKINDofFEELING]

Re: Funny but possibly true

This is my general thought on the matter:

Art and interpersonal skills are separate, and it's a silly limit to place on oneself to expect that any art you enjoy be produced by someone with a specific set of social skills.

Yes, of course, its easier to support nice people than it is to support assholes. At the same time, celebrity tends to distort the actual personalities of people. All anyone on this board knows about Maynard, or Josh Homme, or Roger Waters, or any other "rock star" (using the term loosely) is, at most, derived from your perception of their personality as depicted through anecdotes, interviews, videos, and similar forms of media. At most, you have a personal story of being dismissed or embraced as the basis for your understanding of their personality.

But people are complicated, and it can be very easy for someone with a particular demeanor to be characterized as something they aren't, both positively and negatively. Maynard provides a great example. He clearly cannot stand music media and interviewers in general, and most interviews with him go south because he obviously gets sick of the same questions over and over again. You could argue that's a sign of his intelligence or argue that it's a sign that he chose the wrong job and is a selfish asshole - it just depends on your opinion of the guy. At the same time, though, if you've seen "Blood Into Wine," the documentary on his vineyard, it really casts him in a light I've never seen him in and shows that he's actually a pretty quiet and passionate guy that seems to just be at a point in his life when he doesn't really devote any time to things that seem trivial to him. Again - dick, or genius? All depends on your starting point.

I think that both sides in this discussion have merit but it just boils down to reinforcing your own perceptions. I used to think Brandon Boyd seemed awesome, and now the dude comes across as pretentious and self-serving to me, even though I love his band's music as much as before and have no idea how he ACTUALLY is. I just get annoyed by the guy draping himself around his mic stand, sipping wine, throwing in covers of the Doors in the middle of "Are You In?" and making himself feel connected to his fans just because they have an over-enthusiastic manager that does everything for them. But maybe it's just jealousy.

Ultimately, no one on here can say anything about the "true" personality of any of the artists we're mentioning here. You can perceive what you will and let it either reinforce or contradict your opinion of their art, but you can't really speak to whether or not they're good people. I'm sure you can think of people in your life that come across as rude and selfish and obnoxious but in actuality are good, honest, trustworthy, and compassionate. And if you can't, then you've got a higher standard for friendship than I do. My friends and family members run the gamut, and I would never want to be judged by someone else based on an interview with me, or years of interviews, or a Youtube video, or an anecdote.

Good points. Darroh Sudderth is one of the nicest (talented) singers I've met, but the last time I saw them, he was threatening to "fucking kill" a guy in the crowd.

Like I've said before, Tool's music doesn't stand out to me. It never did, even before I knew anything about Maynard's attitude. I can listen to it, but I would never go out of my way to listen to it. His behavior is just the icing on the cake.